Comments on: A Southeast Asian Church: A Bit of History and a Touch of Theology http://bikemovement.org/blog/2007/03/23/a-southeast-asian-church-a-bit-of-history-and-a-touch-of-theology cultivating a relevant community through conversation Tue, 06 Jan 2009 07:37:12 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.3 by: Forrest Moyer http://bikemovement.org/blog/2007/03/23/a-southeast-asian-church-a-bit-of-history-and-a-touch-of-theology#comment-4079 Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:50:44 +0000 http://bikemovement.org/blog/2007/03/23/a-southeast-asian-church-a-bit-of-history-and-a-touch-of-theology#comment-4079 Thanks, Tim, for fleshing this out more. I think you're absolutely right, that healing and blessing must not be used "as some kind of bait for evangelism or shiny reward to draw in the crowds." So much of this is done in the form of "believe it and you'll receive it" kinds of preaching and teaching that do little to encourage true surrender and discipleship. My experience of behavioral, emotional, psychological and spiritual healing is that I must first "die" to be raised to new life--that death/surrender is part of the healing process. Lately, the following statement made in Philippians 3:10-11 has come to hold new meaning for me: "I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so somehow to attain to the resurrection from the dead." This statement used to trouble me. I knew I was dead in my sin and that I needed resurrection, but I struggled with what "becoming like Christ in his death" meant. I wondered if it meant that we all needed to be martyred or killed for our faith. Now, since I have been in recovery from addiction, I think I finally know what Paul meant. When I am willing to surrender--to die to my own will (which surrender will someday include physical death, but so far means dying to my sinful desires, my rights or privileges)--when I can say with Jesus, "Thy will, not mine, be done"--then I have become like Christ in his death and I will also share in his resurrection. My old man passes away and I am made a new man. I am healed. And it's definitely an ongoing process--not once and done. Again, I'm speaking from experience with behavioral/emotional/psychological/spiritual healing. Physical suffering is something I have no real experience with. Would anyone out there have a perspective on how healing happens for those who suffer physically? Thanks, Tim, for fleshing this out more. I think you’re absolutely right, that healing and blessing must not be used “as some kind of bait for evangelism or shiny reward to draw in the crowds.” So much of this is done in the form of “believe it and you’ll receive it” kinds of preaching and teaching that do little to encourage true surrender and discipleship.

My experience of behavioral, emotional, psychological and spiritual healing is that I must first “die” to be raised to new life–that death/surrender is part of the healing process. Lately, the following statement made in Philippians 3:10-11 has come to hold new meaning for me: “I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so somehow to attain to the resurrection from the dead.” This statement used to trouble me. I knew I was dead in my sin and that I needed resurrection, but I struggled with what “becoming like Christ in his death” meant. I wondered if it meant that we all needed to be martyred or killed for our faith. Now, since I have been in recovery from addiction, I think I finally know what Paul meant. When I am willing to surrender–to die to my own will (which surrender will someday include physical death, but so far means dying to my sinful desires, my rights or privileges)–when I can say with Jesus, “Thy will, not mine, be done”–then I have become like Christ in his death and I will also share in his resurrection. My old man passes away and I am made a new man. I am healed. And it’s definitely an ongoing process–not once and done.

Again, I’m speaking from experience with behavioral/emotional/psychological/spiritual healing. Physical suffering is something I have no real experience with. Would anyone out there have a perspective on how healing happens for those who suffer physically?

]]> by: Tim Showalter http://bikemovement.org/blog/2007/03/23/a-southeast-asian-church-a-bit-of-history-and-a-touch-of-theology#comment-4062 Sun, 22 Apr 2007 04:22:42 +0000 http://bikemovement.org/blog/2007/03/23/a-southeast-asian-church-a-bit-of-history-and-a-touch-of-theology#comment-4062 Thanks to Forrest, Anna and Pauline for you thoughtful responses. I wanted to especially thank Forrest for your suggestion about hoping for God's ultimate healing and for sharing your tough personal stories as examples. You bring up a point that I neglected in my response - the piece of trusting in God's healing and blessing that is so critical to Christian faith. I assume there is one of those lines here, or maybe some tension that we have to live within. Let us not forget to make it clear (and this is where you've helped Forrest) that we worship a God who offers healing and blessing - both spiritual and physical, but let us also be wary of employing that reality lightly as some kind of bait for evangelism or shiny reward to draw in the crowds. I admit it's hard for me to know when to be critical about questions of 'healing' and 'blessing.' It seems like the folks in the biblical stories were pretty comfortable talking about it frequently and loudly. Maybe it's the Anabaptist in me (and all that Schleitheim, commitment stuff), but I find myself dancing around any theology that makes people think that joining the Kingdom of God is a joy ride - and that all sorrows will go away... There's some more thoughts. Share some more, Forrest, if you want, or does anyone else have thoughts? Thanks to Forrest, Anna and Pauline for you thoughtful responses. I wanted to especially thank Forrest for your suggestion about hoping for God’s ultimate healing and for sharing your tough personal stories as examples. You bring up a point that I neglected in my response - the piece of trusting in God’s healing and blessing that is so critical to Christian faith. I assume there is one of those lines here, or maybe some tension that we have to live within. Let us not forget to make it clear (and this is where you’ve helped Forrest) that we worship a God who offers healing and blessing - both spiritual and physical, but let us also be wary of employing that reality lightly as some kind of bait for evangelism or shiny reward to draw in the crowds.

I admit it’s hard for me to know when to be critical about questions of ‘healing’ and ‘blessing.’ It seems like the folks in the biblical stories were pretty comfortable talking about it frequently and loudly. Maybe it’s the Anabaptist in me (and all that Schleitheim, commitment stuff), but I find myself dancing around any theology that makes people think that joining the Kingdom of God is a joy ride - and that all sorrows will go away…

There’s some more thoughts. Share some more, Forrest, if you want, or does anyone else have thoughts?

]]> by: Pauline Thompson http://bikemovement.org/blog/2007/03/23/a-southeast-asian-church-a-bit-of-history-and-a-touch-of-theology#comment-4038 Mon, 16 Apr 2007 14:08:20 +0000 http://bikemovement.org/blog/2007/03/23/a-southeast-asian-church-a-bit-of-history-and-a-touch-of-theology#comment-4038 Dear Tim, not only is this beautiful writing, but a beautiful story that I am eager to see unfold. You are doing amazing things--thank you for sharing your thoughts and journey with us. You are in my prayers (they are becoming more frequent again, with thanks to you). Peace! Dear Tim, not only is this beautiful writing, but a beautiful story that I am eager to see unfold. You are doing amazing things–thank you for sharing your thoughts and journey with us. You are in my prayers (they are becoming more frequent again, with thanks to you). Peace!

]]> by: Anna Showalter http://bikemovement.org/blog/2007/03/23/a-southeast-asian-church-a-bit-of-history-and-a-touch-of-theology#comment-3994 Mon, 09 Apr 2007 02:38:53 +0000 http://bikemovement.org/blog/2007/03/23/a-southeast-asian-church-a-bit-of-history-and-a-touch-of-theology#comment-3994 Tim, As I read your observations on Church in Cambodia I had instant flashbacks to my own observations of the exact same thing when I was in Cambodia. I again felt cynicism even anger toward that prosperity gospel which has misled so many people, especially marginalized people. My first tendency is to lose hope in the Church, but I sense that while you are critical you still have hope. thanks for that. The Church is alive and well even in the midst of our human failings. blessings to you in your journey. Tim, As I read your observations on Church in Cambodia I had instant flashbacks to my own observations of the exact same thing when I was in Cambodia. I again felt cynicism even anger toward that prosperity gospel which has misled so many people, especially marginalized people. My first tendency is to lose hope in the Church, but I sense that while you are critical you still have hope. thanks for that. The Church is alive and well even in the midst of our human failings. blessings to you in your journey.

]]> by: Forrest Moyer http://bikemovement.org/blog/2007/03/23/a-southeast-asian-church-a-bit-of-history-and-a-touch-of-theology#comment-3754 Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:57:42 +0000 http://bikemovement.org/blog/2007/03/23/a-southeast-asian-church-a-bit-of-history-and-a-touch-of-theology#comment-3754 Tim, thanks for this note on your experiences there in Cambodia. It sounds like a major growth experience.... I'm sure you're already light years ahead of many of us in understanding what it means to encounter church in a different culture. Blessings to you as you continue your work. A thought I had on your mention of the boy who was still limping after having been promised healing: It's probably very important for him to understand that God wants to and will heal him...either now or later...maybe not even in this short mortal life...but that at sometime or other (maybe in that time when the tears are wiped from our eyes?) wholeness and healing are his in the fellowship of Christ the healer. In my teenage years, when I was struggling to be free from sexual addiction and homosexual orientation, I became very cynical, feeling that God was not answering my prayers for healing. Eventually that cynicism threatened to undermine my hope and faith and drive me from God. But it was a matter of timing and maturity. I was not ready to accept healing as God wanted to give it (I wanted the quick fix); I had to reach a bottom (a point of powerlessness) and realize that God is still offering healing, but only if I surrender to his way. I can't presume to judge why God allows people to suffer from pain and disease, but I'm sure it's crucial for the suffering to hear and believe that God will heal them someday. I think we live by that kind of hope and faith.... Just a thought :) Tim, thanks for this note on your experiences there in Cambodia. It sounds like a major growth experience…. I’m sure you’re already light years ahead of many of us in understanding what it means to encounter church in a different culture. Blessings to you as you continue your work.

A thought I had on your mention of the boy who was still limping after having been promised healing: It’s probably very important for him to understand that God wants to and will heal him…either now or later…maybe not even in this short mortal life…but that at sometime or other (maybe in that time when the tears are wiped from our eyes?) wholeness and healing are his in the fellowship of Christ the healer. In my teenage years, when I was struggling to be free from sexual addiction and homosexual orientation, I became very cynical, feeling that God was not answering my prayers for healing. Eventually that cynicism threatened to undermine my hope and faith and drive me from God. But it was a matter of timing and maturity. I was not ready to accept healing as God wanted to give it (I wanted the quick fix); I had to reach a bottom (a point of powerlessness) and realize that God is still offering healing, but only if I surrender to his way. I can’t presume to judge why God allows people to suffer from pain and disease, but I’m sure it’s crucial for the suffering to hear and believe that God will heal them someday. I think we live by that kind of hope and faith…. Just a thought :)

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